|
· Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 18:47:01 @fj it's cute but even if you did all of it, 3800 km of standard gauge at 1.4mish wide with an energy density of roughly 100 W/m² gives you about 500 MW of power total, i.e. 10% of current (tiny) Swiss solar capacity. You could get the same capacity by converting 0.03%(!) of Swiss agricultural land to solar. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 18:53:00 @bovine3dom @fj I guess the panels need to be stronger than regular ones as well to protect against stones and such? And you'd need to stop traffic on a line if one needs servicing... Doesn't really sound like a good idea when there's still ample roof space that could be used instead. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 19:04:40 @ives @bovine3dom @fj I am most worried about the extreme level of vibrations they will be subjected to. If it reduces their lifespan too much, they might not provide the energy used to build them. It feels way less stupid than the road version that was tried in France, but still I wonder what makes so many people want to challenge solar panels with mechanical stress and accessibility constraints. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 20:08:26 @ives I'm not really convinced by roof solar, it's cute and fun, but installing solar on farmland is much cheaper and you can get an added ecological benefit by rewilding the land quite significantly, seeding meadows beneath and around the panels https://solarenergyuk.org/news/wildlife-found-thriving-on-solar-farms/ (it's from an industry group, so take with a pinch of salt, but look at how gorgeous those meadows are...) |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 20:15:42 @bovine3dom @fj Fine if you have the space for it. We definitely don't over here in Belgium; not sure what the situation is in Switzerland, where they're doing the rail thing. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 20:21:21 @ives are you talking about a different Belgium to the one i am looking at because this one i could cover 90% in solar panels without a single person having to move Medien: 1 |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 20:25:25 @bovine3dom 20% of what you're seeing is forest, and another 20% is buildings. Unless you're going to use rooftops and cut down all trees, I don't think you'll reach 90%. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 20:38:12 @ives yeah, fair enough, sorry. i could only cover 80% of it in solar panels without a single person having to move. i had underestimated just how dense Belgium is - it is about 20% populated as you said. I'm not keen on cutting down any forests so let's only cover 50% of Belgium in solar panels that's 15,000km² which would be about 1,500GW - double the current total world capacity of solar i really don't understand in what way you "don't have space" :) Medien: 1 |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 21:19:22 @bovine3dom @ives In most provinces of Belgium, the majority of the agricultural land goes livestock grazing, an utterly wasteful activity. It can be eliminated without any impact on food security (since meat and dairy are useless) or income (since it's all loss-making subsidised business). (But it doesn't even need to be, as you can let sheep graze around the solar panels.) The average livestock grazing farm is 40 ha. How many landowners do you need to convert to solar? |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 23:30:45 It seems to me that livestock grazing is not incompatible with solar panels. Medien: 1 |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 23:40:37 |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 00:26:49 @resuna @nemobis @bovine3dom @ives More solar panels and a little less livestock would be the ideal combination. The cows do however love the shade the solar panels provide. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 08:42:24 @bovine3dom It's not a matter of space. Belgium doesn't want any more solar capacity because our grid is shit, our grid operators are grifters, and people are going to have to pay to inject the excess production from their rooftop PV. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 21:52:05 @bovine3dom Rewilding isn't even necessary if you put up vertical both-sided agrivoltaic panels oriented north to south: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 00:28:55 @wonka @bovine3dom @ives @fj According to the Wikipedia page the image depicts: "Vertical solar panels, east to west orientation, with bifacial modules near Donaueschingen, Germany.[1]" |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 00:30:39 @alterelefant Facing west and east makes a line oriented north to south. I meant it like pictured there. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 05:39:07 That vertical placement on *both* sides seems to have been designed by someone who wants to sell lots of solar panels. You would get as much power from a *flat* 25 cm strip all along the post line. Solar panels are not 100% environmentally benign. The best way to use them is to have them follow the sun, at least in the vertical dimension. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 22:50:08 @bovine3dom @ives @fj the three big advantages of roofs are: |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 23:10:01 @bovine3dom @ives @fj Roofs are a no brainer. They're (mostly) already sloped, and roughly half of all of them have one face sloped towards the sun for significant parts of the day; they're high, so tend not to be shaded; they don't often get walked on or disturbed; and they have to be clad in something waterproof anyway, so why not solar panel? |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 07:05:45 @bovine3dom @ives @fj One great advantage of rooftop solar is you don't have to worry about transmission. The electricity is used on site and if there is any excess the building is already connected to the grid. This is a big deal in places where transmission costs are relatively high compared to generation costs. Rooftop solar also gives benefits directly to building owners. Australia has > 11% of all electricity generation now from rooftop solar. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 10:10:02 @nnethercote for me it's all about scaling - if you want stuff cheap you need scale. one small farm can produce as much solar as ~100 houses with tiny costs per panel in terms of installation, maintenance etc i think some of my prejudice also comes from how we live as Europeans - most people live in flats of 3-4 storeys with about 20m² per inhabitant, which gives you roof space of about 5m² per person. so say 500W/person on a sunny day, which isn't really enough. i do think it's cool though! |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 12:21:21 Roofs are great: you cut out the need for major network upgrades for every kWh that is consumed "locally". |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 12:28:40 @knud @bovine3dom @ives @fj A friend who’s a specialist in this told me that he thinks you could get the benefits of home rooftop solar more efficiently by having a central solar array in each neighbourhood, reducing installation and maintenance costs. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 12:36:08 @benjamingeer @bovine3dom @ives @fj I partially agree, this again is a question of available space. What I think would be more important is a neighbourhood _storage_ facility. This leaves the city-wide grid untouched, allows local production and consumption. The trend here in Germany is for everyone to put a battery in their basement (us as well) but that's solely a result of the laws, not of efficiency. Production-wise, private households could just produce all they need. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 13:10:56 @knud i think you have the same dimension mismatch because lots of people live in flats in a 3D fashion, but roofs are 2D not to mention the nightmare of arranging access to hundreds of roofs compared to a single farm i must admit i haven't seen any hard numbers on this, it just seemed obvious to me that installing and maintaining loads of solar in an empty field would be cheaper than doing a couple of panels across each of hundreds of houses. autoconsumption might change that |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 19:02:28 @bovine3dom @fj it says in the post: “But often, there's disagreement about where to put the panels without impacting the landscapes too much.” You might be right, but endless arguments would mean 0MW. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 19:17:51 @stuartgale I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, I just wanted to add some perspective that was missing from the article :) Switzerland is currently installing about 1500MW of solar power capacity a year so they're not doing horrendously badly. They could do more, especially since "overcapacity" in China means panels are extremely cheap at the moment. But it is thankfully far more than 0MW. |
|
Föderation EN Do 24.04.2025 21:55:38 @bovine3dom @fj It is slightly less dumb than solar roadways, but only slightly. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 01:39:35 @katrinatransfem @bovine3dom @fj Having trains run over them day in and out they will get super dusty very quickly. Doubt they will produce much electricity |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 02:08:54 @bovine3dom @fj |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 08:40:07 @Okanogen @bovine3dom @fj The primary issue here should be seen as an issue of safety. These panels obstruct inspection, increase the risk of derailment, and increase the risk of injury to on-track staff. The risk from solar panels installed on the track is zero if none are installed. |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 10:00:25 @Okanogen i can't tell if you're criticising the railway idea or the solar farms :) "solar panels in fields" has the benefit of working today and being extremely cheap the downside is that people believe they are ugly. but that's ok, they'll get used to them |
|
Föderation EN Fr 25.04.2025 12:17:59 Indeed: train tracks are mostly 1-dimensional, which is what transport needs. Solar needs to be 2-dimensional, because of collecting area. So unless you can make a decent 2nd dimension (4m high sound protection walls at Autobahns) this does make only limited sense. |
